This article looks at comments made from the November 9th- November 20th!
Remember, don’t insult other posters. If you insult other posters, your post that you might have spent so much time on might not get approved, and thrown in the trash. Stay classy!
Mettaur
“I don’t think a slow moveset would still fit Black Shadow because he is from a racing game.”
I don’t really buy into the idea that all F-Zero characters need to be fast because F-Zero is fast. If Smash got more Sonic characters would they all have to be fast due to that series’ emphasis on speed? Do all Mario character have to have great jumps and recovery moves because they’re from a platformer? Relative to other F-Zero characters Black Shadow seems to have less emphasis on speed and more on power. Relative to his own series it makes sense to have him be a tank. Even just looking at his body type its hard to see him filling any other role.
Looking at the Samurai Goroh assist trophy he doesn’t move especially quickly despite being from F-Zero. He’s also one of the assist trophies that moves in a similar manner to a playable character so it seems like a fairly safe assumption that if he did make it into the game his movement wouldn’t be all that different from what we see of his AT. It doesn’t seem like Sakurai believes F-Zero characters need to be fast.
“Then, on top of that the magic powers that Ganondorf has in Smash wouldn’t be applicable to Black Shadow.”
Considering Ganondorf’s darkness is purely for cosmetic effect this isn’t much of an issue. You could remove or reskin the darkness effect on Ganondorf’s moves and his moveset would remain functionally identical.
You may not even need to go that far though. I’m fairly certain Falcon’s fire moves in Smash aren’t actually based on anything, hell the darkness effect isn’t really reminiscent of anything Ganondorf has ever done either. Ganondorf’s magic tends to be more light based along with occasionally fire or lightning based as Ganon. He presumably got saddled with the darkness effect because he’s evil and/or has an association with darkness in some games. If being evil and having an association with darkness is all you need for the darkness effect to be considered suitable for your character, I see no reason the guy named BLACK SHADOW shouldn’t be just as eligible. You even said yourself that he does show off some vaguely magical abilities. Furthermore we already have a precedent set for F-Zero characters getting nonsensical elemental effect on their moves in Captain Falcon. Black Shadow having darkness moves makes just as much if not more sense than Falcon using fire.
From:
The issue with your analogy is that Mario characters are actually playable in their games. With games like F-Zero, and Starfox (for the most part), those games are played mainly through using the vehicles. The third slide from the 2008 GDC is particularly relevant. With Captain Falcon, Sakurai needs to make up his own parameters for the characters…he needs to fill in the gaps. In that case, representing the core aspect of the series is probably the best course of action.
Samurai Goroh actually moves pretty quickly as an assist trophy.
Ganondorf’s darkness is purely for cosmetic effect, I’ll give you that.
I believe the main concept behind the design of Captain Falcon was to emphasize high risk, high return, which was supposed to emulates F-Zero gameplay.
a
Shh, don’t point out his bias or he might condescend you again.
From:
Eh, you can say whatever you want as long as you don’t insult other posters. Freedom of speech, yo.
MagcargoMan
“and don’t replace unique characters”
Falco got in over Wolf in Smash 4 despite the latter being much less of a clone.
“I really don’t see the harm of clone characters.”
I already explained it in depth, but to sum things up:
– wasted potential in movesets (Ganondorf, Toon Link)
– padding that bloats the game and makes 100% completion more of a grind
– overepping series (Star Fox in Brawl, Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem in Smash 4)
– adding characters that aren’t even needed in an All-Star game (Dr. Mario) or wouldn’t have gotten in on their own merit
From:
-It not wasted potential if that’s the only way they could get in.
-Clones still introduce different ways to play the same character. It’s no different from Akuma, Ken and Ryu.
-Falco was the number 1 requested character on the If There Were a Smash 2 Poll for StarFox. Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus were going to get those characters as alts. Pikmin would’ve too if Alph was easier to program.
-It allows some interesting and possible obscure characters their own shot.
Dr. Mario was a critically loved game. Before his appearance in Melee…Dr. Mario, VS. Dr. Mario, Dr. Mario BS Version, Tetris and Dr. Mario, and Dr. Mario 64 were released. Dr. Mario was deserving to get into Melee. He had more games that some characters in Smash!
haruhisailormars
Theoretically? If it happens yes. I don’t see 3DS limitations on that fancy Switch video.
If people are interested I’ll just leave these here.
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Snake
Inkling
Banjo
Those are all options I believe are on the table. Why Banjo? Because Phil Spencer is friends with Reggie and I doubt they haven’t at least talked about this.
From:
I personally don’t think Banjo is still that likely, but I hope for the fans of Banjo, he could make it in!
Troy Kv
I would like to know how I would define Mewtwo’s “Theme” or “Niche”, I need to know it for an article that I will do.
From:
Glass canon? You should check out the Nintendo Dream interview we translated, as it has information that’s relevant.
Neo-Nate
The lack of opposition to this sort of thing upsets me, to be honest.
It’s not a matter of the costumes a lot of the time. Other things that aren’t regarded as sex appeal are also censored. I personally feel that it is an insult to the fans/customers of the game, dumbing down many segments to appease to those who want to get uppity about it, and then other people just let them walk over them saying “eh I can still enjoy the game.”
It’s not about that for me. It’s the principal. The principal that people (who more often than not don’t even play the games) feel the right to enforce their views on a piece of entertainment, and that bits are changed because those too bloody dense to use Google won’t understand (like a bit of culture will kill them.)
I want to appreciate the game how it was developed and how the creators intended it to be enjoyed. It really annoys that the other gamers are so nonchalant about something like this, like “woah it’s just a costume” or “it’s just a camera angle, calm down.” People aren’t looking for the fanservice or the lewds, like someone said you can find your jollies elsewhere really easily. If someone thinks it’s worth the effort to moan about, it’s worth the effort to defend. It’s like tampering with your favourite track because a whole bunch of people thought “this song doesn’t sound good at all, let’s completely change it and remove the original forever.”
Why can’t we just have two bloody versions, or do what a lot of other games do? “WOULD YOU LIKE TO TURN ON CENORSHIP?” Is it really that hard?
From:
Thanks for commenting!
I can understand your point, and an option to include potentially offensive comment is probably the best solution. A lot of times, I don’t think changes that are made are violating the creator’s vision. When working on a big budget project like a movie or a game, compromises are going to have to be made. Sometimes it’s the director not getting the shot they exactly wanted. Other times, it’s budget issues. There’s a lot of art that has been made on compromises. We can only hope that the general intent, and purpose is still there.
Hydronix Warrior (@Hydrozor)
I see Quest 64. That makes me happy.
The N64 just has a ton of great games. Sports, Fighting, RPG(although I do admit it doesn’t have much of this genre, but they’re pretty sweet all the same), Wrestling, Platforming…
Every Rareware game deserves it immensely. Obviously I want to see an official rerelease of Quest, but yeah.
From:
When I made my list, I tried including different genres. 😀 Sadly, there’s not a lot of RPGs for the N64.
Spiral
When you put into context how many stages are from the Mario series, it’s suddenly understandable why Sakurai was hesitant on adding too much Mario content. Though I guess it’s unavoidable for Nintendo’s most iconic series. It is possible that the Mario game for the Switch could still have a stage even if the game isn’t out before Smash is, isn’t that what happened with the Woolly World stage? Besides that, I think Mario Party does have a lot of potential for a stage based off the series, and it’s a little surprising we haven’t had one so far. Mario and Luigi, not so much, but that’s because I can’t really think of any notable environments from the series that could be recreated in Smash in a unique or interesting way. Anyway, good job with these articles, stages are an overlooked area in Smash worth people’s attention.
From:
Yes, Woolly World was decided to help promote the game. I wonder why Mario Party hasn’t gotten a stage, especially now that Nintendo is developing the series. Wish Sakurai would comment on that.
MagcargoMan
“Why not just build upon Smash for Wii U/3DS?”
Because I don’t want to buy what is basically the same game for a third time. Smash Wii U is my least played Smash, and one of the reasons is because after sinking over a hundred hours into the 3DS version by the time I played it, it felt like I was playing the same game despite the new stages and modes. A brand new Smash would make things feel fresh again.
“With Wario’s series being splintered into Wario Land and WarioWare, it made a lot of sense to represent who Wario was, instead of one series over the other.”
Why couldn’t he represent both (and Wario World too for that matter)? Have him have the shoulder barge, piledriver, Earthshake Punch and bike all in one moveset. Wario Land is barely existent in the Smash series, and Smash 4 reduced what little representation it had even further. Literally the only Wario Land thing in Smash 4 is one song, and it wasn’t even a remix.
From:
If they add enough content, then I don’t see the issue. There aren’t a lot of changes in between each Smash, and remaking the engine seems like a waste of effort — especially if it’s one that people like for the most part. Sakurai has stated that characters is the main appeal of a new Smash, and how it can differentiate itself from previous entries.
I think a lot of his moveset was inspired from Wario World. More songs, and a stage should be pulled from Wario Land. In particular, the final boss battle from Wario Land would be an amazing stage.
Troy Kv
The Ice Climbers and the Inklings and extremely likely (in fact, I’m sure they are shoo-in)… The other characters depends a lot of the Smash Development and release date.
If this is a enhanced Smash Wii U/3DS with updated characters and patch, Dedicueye would also be a important character too consider.
Outside of these three is really difficult to predict which characters would be selected (only Inkling and a 7th Pokémon have the “popular and recent” stigma in their side)….
With, The Smash Ballot will have a bigger role this time…
What do you think Source Gaming Staff?
From:
In the upcoming podcast we recorded with Relax Alax, I named the seven characters I think are extremely likely. I agree that the Smash Ballot will have a bigger role, especially for Nintendo characters. Because of that, I think King K. Rool is very likely this time around. There’s no escaping from his popularity, and the issues I’ve mentioned in the past aren’t as important when it’s the base roster.
Latest posts by PushDustIn
(see all)
– Ganondorf would have made it into Brawl if he didn’t get in Melee. Besides being the main villain of the series, he had three appearances in his Gerudo form by the time of Brawl, as opposed to Melee where he was only a Gerudo in Ocarina of Time. He would have been a priority. Toon Link probably wouldn’t, but if they were only gonna add a second Link for it to be a clone, they should have just kept Young Link.
– Better customisation options would be able to offer the same experience.
“Falco was the number 1 requested character on the If There Were a Smash 2 Poll for StarFox. ”
That is for Melee. I’m talking about Smash 4.
“Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus were going to get those characters as alts.”
But we didn’t. And then Fire Emblem got another two characters as DLC. He didn’t know when to quit.
A second Mario should be someone who offers something truly different, like Paper Mario. Dr Mario is more like alternate costume material. They weren’t even willing to give him a unique Final Smash or victory theme. He’s always been treated as an afterthought in Smash, and was a last-minute addition in both Smash games he was in. Even his stage wasn’t a priority.
“If they add enough content, then I don’t see the issue. There aren’t a lot of changes in between each Smash, and remaking the engine seems like a waste of effort”
It gets boring and stagnant. Like what happened to 2D Mario with four similar New Super Mario Bros. titles in a row. Playing the same thing eventually gets tiring.
A lot of those moves in that analysis listed as originating from Wario World have a question mark next to them. Seems like it’s not very sure. Wild Swing-Ding as his Forward Throw is the only move that is unambiguously from Wario World. Chomp is sort of like reminiscent of Hyper Suction (the Inhaling Chomp variation definitely is a reference), but isn’t actually it. Corkscrew is nothing like Corkscrew Conk, so it’s clearly an original move.
I’d just like a balance between Wario Land and WarioWare in Smash, rather than the games pretending the former is so obscure part of Wario’s identity. This is also why I’m in favour of Captain Syrup over someone like Ashley. There are some great songs from Wario Land, Wario World and even Master of Disguise that’d make awesome remixes like Toxic Landfill, Greenhorn Forest or Carpaccio’s battle theme, but there has only ever been one Wario Land song in Smash, which wasn’t even a remix (and for some reason Sakurai thinks it’s particularly notable enough to be his victory theme).
I really wonder could have been Ganondorf and Falco if we didn’t them as Clones in Melee…
Oh thanks, I need to make her the most different possible of Mewtwo without making she lose her focus…
And, yeah, I’m writing an article that I would like to publish in Source Gaming when I finish it.
Mewtwo is a “she”?
good luck with the article, Mewtwo could use some new moves to make it more interesting… Confusion and Disable are really lame attacks for the “Most Powerful Pokémon of all”
Actually… I’m talking about a different character. Sorry, my grammar trying to be “not to obvious” is really bad xD
But hey, that would be a interesting article for another day 😛
FWIW, the description of high-risk high-reward on the Japanese N64 site link refers specifically to Falcon Punch being a high risk high reward move, not Falcon himself.
“The issue with your analogy is that Mario characters are actually playable in their games. With games like F-Zero, and Starfox (for the most part), those games are played mainly through using the vehicles. The third slide from the 2008 GDC is particularly relevant. With Captain Falcon, Sakurai needs to make up his own parameters for the characters…he needs to fill in the gaps. In that case, representing the core aspect of the series is probably the best course of action.”
Fair enough. I’d mostly agree with this point but I still think the situation with Black Shadow isn’t quite the same as with Falcon. While the F-Zero characters themselves aren’t playable the vehicles they drive can be thought of as representative of them to an extent. With Star Fox most games put all the characters in the same vehicles or have multiple vehicles that function the same, this is not the case for F-Zero. I do think it would make sense to have F-Zero characters incorporate their vehicles’ stats as aspects of their playstyles as it is the closest thing they have to a playable appearance.
With Falcon he was the first rep for his series so there was no real point of comparison for his stats and what they actually meant. On the other hand, any new F-Zero character can now be directly compared to Falcon and their statistics can be implemented relative to his own. Black Shadow has higher power and defense but more limited speed boosting relative to Falcon. Would it not make sense to translate those aspects to Smash?
“Samurai Goroh actually moves pretty quickly as an assist trophy.”
I’m not sure what you’re seeing in that video I’m not. For argument’s sake, Goroh is spawned near the center of final destination in that video and proceeds to run until he reaches the edge. Timing the amount of time that passes between him hitting the ground to reaching the edge of the stage I was getting around the range of 1.35-1.45 seconds. Here’s some guy’s measurements of the time it took for all the brawl characters to run across final destination: https://smashboards.com/threads/brawl-movement-speed-list.182060/#post-4899852
The slowest characters in the game are Ganondorf and Jiggilypuff both sitting at 2.6 seconds to cross the entirely of final destination, so presumably around 1.3 for half of it, still faster than Goroh. Captain Falcon only takes half that time. Even taking into account probable error on my part and in the measurements I’m using, as well as slight differences in initial acceleration and whatnot, it still seems that Goroh isn’t moving fast by Smash standards.
“I believe the main concept behind the design of Captain Falcon was to emphasize high risk, high return, which was supposed to emulates F-Zero gameplay.”
Soma’s already mentioned this isn’t quite accurate, but regardless I wanted to point out that Ganondorf’s current moveset probably emphasizes “high risk, high return” to an even greater degree than Falcon.