This is a translation of page one of a three-page interview Katsura Hashino did with Den Fami Nico Gamer, originally published October 30, 2019. In it, he talks about creating the proposal document for Persona 3, and what the situation at Atlus was like when the game’s development began. Enjoy it!
Note: Do not repost the full translation. Please use the first two paragraphs, link to this translation, and credit Source Gaming and translator Brando. This translation is for fan use only, and may not accurately reflect the opinions of Katsura Hashino or Den Fami Nico Gamer.
Source Gaming does not run ads on its website. If you enjoy this translation, please let us know on Twitter! Translation by Brando. Thanks to Crane043 and MasterOfBear for assistance.
In the early 2000’s, Atlus was at a crossroads. The company had garnered some hardcore fans through its Shin Megami Tensei series, but they were struggling to expand their audience, even after spinning off the Persona and Devil Summoner series in hopes of attracting new players.
One by one, veteran staff members were leaving, and the company’s consumer games division was pressed to take action.
And then, in July 2006 the company released Persona 3*, the young adult RPG with a peculiar atmosphere and style, notably different from day one.
*Persona 3: The third entry in the Persona series, released for the Playstation 2 in July 2006. Set in a school and the surrounding town, the game tells a story of high school boys and girls who wield special powers called “Personas.”
The game had animated visuals with a restrained color palette, and a cool, rap-infused soundtrack.
While it was poppy and lighthearted on the surface, an aura of darkness lurked below. With this unique atmosphere, Persona 3 marked a clear “transformation” from previous entries in the series.
Persona 3 was released about 6 years after Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, and 7 years since Persona 2: Innocent Sin. The game later got an updated rerelease, a mobile port, and even expanded into anime and comic book adaptations.
Along with sequels Persona 4 and Persona 5, the series has received critical acclaim not just within Japan, but also internationally ever since. Persona 3 was a turning point that succeeded in reaching a wider audience, and the Persona series has earned its place as one of the series most representative of Japanese gaming.
Persona 3 boldly threw some light into the eerie atmosphere the previous entries had, put a main emphasis on the game’s social link system, where bonds with other characters strengthen special powers called “Personas,” and overhauled the game’s combat and demon-fusing systems.
The man who led Persona 3’s development and its transformation into a totally different form than its predecessors was Atlus’s Mr. Katsura Hashino.
Mr. Hashino is currently spearheading a new project at Atlus’s “Studio Zero,” and in this new work he aims to return to fantasy as “a world where illusions become reality,” as opposed to “medieval fantasy,” which has become the common definition in this day and age.
Not just inheriting the standards created by others as-is, but using one’s own understanding to come up with a fresh interpretation. Sounds similar to Persona 3, which was created in a whole new fashion compared to its predecessors, doesn’t it?
In this interview, we hear from Mr. Hashino about Persona 3’s spirit-rousing proposal document, the “revolutionary” development environment that formed in those days, and how, when the game’s development began in 2004, a band of young rebels within Atlus gathered under the flag of Mr. Hashino’s Red Proposal.
Interviewer: TAITAI
Photographer: 佐々木秀二
The Revolution of the Persona 3 Planning Document
ーToday I’m speaking with Mr. Katsura Hashino, director of the Persona series since Persona 3. Mr. Hashino, I’d like to ask you about the development of Persona 3, and what things were like back in those days. Wow, looking at the project’s proposal document here today, it’s like a waterfall of text is suddenly raining down on me.
Hashino: I can’t draw, so I have to convey things using text.
ーI’ve never seen so many words in a project proposal before, and the contents of it are also quite something. Honestly, I feel inspired.
Hashino: I guess there might’ve been some parts like that (laughs).
ーI mean, for starters, the section on the front cover is really wild. Writing things like, “The revolution is coming. Don’t miss this bus!” and “How does one truly die?” I’ve really never seen anything like this while working! (Laughs)
*Excerpt from the front cover of Persona 3’s proposal document:
“I was thinking of putting a table of contents here, but thought “Eh, it’s fine,” and instead tried to focus on the cries of the revolutionaries. “To the troubled 15-year-olds, 20-year-olds, 30-year-olds, and all the unfulfilled souls afflicted by worry… The revolution is coming. Don’t miss this bus!” “What is the true means of dying? How does one truly die?”
… These are completely unrelated to the setup, but I wanted to make the game “fiery.”
Hashino: Looking at this now… it’s crazy, right? It was over ten years ago, so I don’t completely remember, but I think I probably wrote this because I wanted to convey to the staff the idea of, “We’ll change the way things have been done until now.”
I thought nobody would read a table of contents, and in the development room there was a “Collection of Famous Sayings from the Revolutionaries,” so I instead wrote out some of these words that seemed like they had some power behind them (laughs). Back then, the front page also had Che Guevara’s face* on it, but now I don’t see it on here.
*Che Guevara’s face: The face of Cuban politician and revolutionary Ernesto “Che” Guevara. Famous for his contributions to the Cuban Revolution’s success.
ーThis front page is one thing, but the game’s themes are quite electrifying as well. “To all young people who can’t find something to live for (= something to die for).” If I take a good look at this, I might want to dedicate two years of my life to Mr. Hashino.
*Excerpt from the second page of Persona 3’s proposal document, ”Themes”
“Running parallel with the gameplay objectives are the themes to be communicated to the player through gameplay. The goals of the game, as an artistic work. Staking your life on something important, finding fulfillment in life through determination, and experiencing things that would be difficult or impossible in the real world, through roleplaying. This is offered with a story that makes one think about fulfillment in life via awareness of death. It is because one searches like their life depends on it, that they discover their dream. It is because one lives like each day is their last, that the dream comes true.
An endeavor to support the young people who have not found something to live for (= something to die for). The themes of this work are “death”, “life”, “dreams”, and “youth.”
Hashino: Ahaha (laughs).
ーWhy was fulfillment in life decided on as a theme for Persona 3 in the first place?
Hashino: When I was writing the proposal, if I remember correctly, it was around the time of the Gulf War**. At the time, people were saying things like, “Right now young people in Japan are living blissfully, but in other countries, the youth are dying in wars.” It was a prominent topic of debate.
TN**: Hashino says the Gulf War, but the Gulf War was in 1990-1991, long before work on the Persona series even began. I think it’s possible he meant the Iraq War, which started in 2003, closer to the beginning of Persona 3’s development.
ーThe argument that “Japanese people have been dulled by peace,” right? So then, did you want to inform people about the conditions of life in foreign countries?
Hashino: Well, it wasn’t about discussing which side is right, it was purely just the inspiration to start crafting a story. Comparative theory is often about posing a question, and it was a topic that people were concerned about at that time.
This is going to sound extreme, but for example, in the real world, you can’t test out what it’s like to die, right? Of course not, it’s obvious. But I thought in a game, wouldn’t it be interesting if, in a simulation sort of way, you could be put through that experience of dying, and think, “Could I die if I held some reason to live, or some reason to die?” To exaggerate, it was like a chance to think about different individuals’ views on life and death.
Similar to Shin Megami Tensei’s* “Law” and “Chaos” routes, it was something like a storytelling experiment, asking, “If you could try doing this thing that’s impossible by nature, how would you feel?” Persona 3 was born from that time period when I was extremely fixated on experiments like that.
*Shin Megami Tensei: Series of role-playing games by Atlus, the first entry of which came out in 1992. Also called “Megaten.” The predecessor to Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga and its sequel. The game has a system of ideologies “Law,” “Chaos,” and “Neutral,” as well as personality traits “Light,” “Neutral,” and “Dark.” As the game progresses, the main character’s alignment with these attributes change depending on the actions of the player.
Anyway, since Persona 4, the games have been built on the systems inherited from Persona 3, but during the Persona 3 days we were fumbling around, trying to figure out what to do. Finally, after thinking about how to come up with this new Atlus RPG with unconventional systems, the idea arrived at was, “Try dying once.”
At the end of Persona 4, the game asks, “What will you do with the criminal?” In this way, we want the player to experience being given this ultimate deciding power. In Persona 3’s story too, we created that kind of part early on. “The final boss has been revealed. If you guys fight, you will surely die, but if you don’t fight, the world will be destroyed. What will you do?” That kind of “fork in the road” moment.
ーI see, it’s about testing their values, and trying to get at the consequences that an individual’s choices would bring about.
Hashino: Right, that aspect is there, since the Persona series was originally born from Shin Megami Tensei. I think you have to make that an objective when creating games. If you’re just following along someone’s story, then that might as well be experienced through manga or anime. Which would be lonely as a game developer, right?
By the way, originally the ending for Persona 3 was going to have a scene like, “At your own funeral, how many people will be there?” (Laughs)
ーAhaha (laughs).
Hashino: A lonely death is possible, right? Don’t you think about it once in a while? Like, “If I died, I wonder how many people would be at my funeral.”
ーI understand.
Hashino: So, after you beat the game, you’d see how many people come to your funeral, and while watching that, the credits would roll. I talked with the staff about doing something like that. But now, I think I’m glad we didn’t put it in (laughs).
(Everyone laughs).
The Rebels Gathered under the Red Proposal
ーRight after you joined Atlus, the first entry in the Persona series, Revelations: Persona, came out in 1996, and then Persona 2: Innocent Sin in 1999. Were you involved with them at all?
Hashino: At the time, Atlus was trying to make a large change of course, and it was decided that the Shin Megami Tensei brand would be expanded into the Persona and Devil Summoner* games. Persona was handled by the team from Last Bible*, and the team that made Shin Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei 2 were in charge of Devil Summoner. I originally belonged to the latter of the two.
*Devil Summoner: Series branched out from Shin Megami Tensei. Features demon summoning, and a story that’s not about fighting for the fate of humanity, but instead a drama that unfolds underground, away from normal society. The first entry, Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner, came out in 1995, and the sequel, Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers, came out in 1997.
*Last Bible: Shin Megami Tensei Gaiden: Last Bible, one of the spinoff series of Shin Megami Tensei. The first game was released in 1992 for the Game Boy. Set in a world with strong fantasy elements, the games incorporate traditional 2D RPG systems, except for the last entry, Last Bible Special.
ーSo, you weren’t involved with launching the first Persona game. How did it look at the time?
Hashino: I remember noticing that team coming up with characters and doing something with a school environment, but that was about it. After all, I was busy and didn’t have much time to be watching other teams.
However, contrary to my initial impression, I did feel that the brutal difficulty of the game was good, the subject matter was good, and it had a chaotic appeal, in a good way. The unique game world made you reflect on the time period it was set in, that was good too. That’s what I first felt about Persona*.
*Persona (Revelations: Persona): Came out in 1996 for the Playstation. Directed by Kouji Okada, who worked on the Shin Megami Tensei series, art design by Kazuma Kaneko. While it inherited some elements from the Shin Megami Tensei series, it also featured some bold changes, like taking place in a high school setting.
Though I also clearly remember my superiors saying that Persona was started for the sake of getting more players.
I can say this now, but Persona, with its high school, young adult setting, and with the wave of popularity Playstation had at the time–the game did reach many new players, but it still had parts which couldn’t escape from that “hardcore gamer” image, I think.
Outside of Persona as well, Atlus was trying to attract a broader market, and I do remember they were struggling to expand their playerbase.
ーAnd you were tasked with that new entry in the Persona series, after working on Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne*, right?
*Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne: The third entry in the Shin Megami Tensei series, released in 2003 for the Playstation 2 (9 years after the previous installment, Shin Megami Tensei 2). Later, an expanded edition called Maniax was released, featuring additional elements and adjustments for hardcore fans.
Hashino: If I remember correctly, around that time there were discussions about how should we change our style of game development going forward, and the younger staff were saying things like, “Why don’t we try making something new?”
I had received this responsibility [of directing the new game], so I said, “In that case, the latest Persona entry wrapped up the story that had been going, and we’ve got some time to work with, so shall we try doing a completely new Persona game?
ーSo it seems Persona 3 was like a rebirth, similar to how the Persona series was originally started because Atlus was trying to make a big change in direction. Both came from these turning point moments at Atlus.
Hashino: You’re right. When I started working on Persona 3, I did look back and think, “What sort of circumstances was the Persona series created in to start with?” They really were similar situations.
At the time, Persona was started because the company wanted to expand their audience, so I felt like, “Alright then, I’ll try doing this new Persona title to widen our playerbase once again.”
ーI understand that the core team for Persona 3 was mostly younger staff members. Around how old was everyone at that time?
Hashino: Generally they were young, yes. I was in my early thirties. There were a lot of staff in their twenties, and I formed a team with them.
I don’t know about now, but back in those days, the people who joined Atlus–I don’t know if I’d say “naive,” but, the kind of person who’d think, “I’m going to make it big at this company!” or “I’m gonna get tons of good experience!”– there wasn’t anyone like that (laughs).
We got along right away.
ーThey just wanted to make Atlus games.
Hashino: Especially at that time, the only people at Atlus were the ones who wanted to make Atlus-ish games.
Even though the staff had all been working on various projects, they hadn’t been able to broaden their playerbase much, and the younger generation was watching this situation from below. Thoughts like, “There has to be another way, right?” were piling up.
They joined the company wanting to make interesting, Atlus-worthy games, but at the same time I think they felt this sense of impending danger like, “If things continue the same way as they always have, won’t the situation just get worse and worse?”
Also, I think this can happen at any company, but there were staff who, even though they had the skills, they weren’t given many opportunities to work on the projects that they wanted to. They wanted their talents to be put to use. This includes Shigenori Soejima*, who said he mainly wanted to be in charge of art design.
*Shigenori Soejima: Born in 1974. Works with Atlus’s artwork team as a character designer and art director. After joining the company as a new graduate, he worked on a variety of projects as a member of the design staff.
ーSo you scraped together these younger guys within the company who had some pent-up frustration, it sounds like.
Hashino: I don’t know about frustrations, but they were like a gang of young rebels (laughs).
We didn’t have a complete team assembled from the start, so in addition to some staff members I worked with on Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne, I called out to other staff who looked free and said, “Hey, want to do this with us?”
This was right when when a large title had just been finished, so there was something like a change of generations, where the younger staff’s desire to do something kept growing louder, and it seemed like good timing to move forward with Persona 3’s development in full force.
ーSo was that proposal document put together once the young band of rebels had been assembled?
Hashino: Well actually it was just me at first, so I proceed to work on it quietly by myself, since there wasn’t a lot of time allotted to come up with a plan for Persona 3. That’s why I outlined the rough design of the game, and then later joined up with the other staff to discuss it. Though from Persona 4 onwards, everyone has worked out the details of the project plan together.
ーFor the plan itself, what were you “aiming for?”
Hashino: People familiar with marketing will often declare things like, “This product will only sell this many units,” and, “There’s only a set number of people who might buy this in the first place. That’s why you should focus on appealing to just that limited audience.”
But from the creator’s side, it makes me think, “Is that really the case?” I want to believe that there’s other players out there who might “get it.” It’s more interesting, when nobody knows exactly how things will turn out. And it’s precisely because things are interesting on my side, that that “freshness” will get through to the player, I think.
I’ve heard that From Software’s Mr. Hidetaka Miyazaki* once said something like, “Dark Souls was planned with not just logic, but also guts.” I think that’s just great. Daring to include not just the logically decided, but also elements where you won’t know how it works out unless you try. I think it’s extremely difficult to pull off, but if those aspects gets conveyed well, I have a feeling that the number of new players who’ll think, “I want to give this a shot” will increase.
*Hidetaka Miyazaki: Company president of From Software. After working on 2009’s Demon’s Souls, he has continued to produce critically acclaimed 3D action RPG games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne.
ーI see.
Hashino: I think believing that you can deal with any obstacle, overcome any problem using ideas, that’s the ideal. Believing that human beings’ wisdom can make anything work out.
For example, there are some works which, even if they’re unfinished, they make you feel like they’re unfinished because there’s so much passion in them, and that makes you feel their sense of scale. Epic works like The Brothers Karamazov*, or for games, titles like Shenmue*.
*The Brothers Karamazov: Novel published in 1880 by Russian author Fyodor Dostoevsky. Was originally planned to have a part two, but Dostoevsky passed away before it was written.
*Shenmue: Action-adventure game series created by Sega. Directed by Yu Suzuki. Made with a huge development budget, but the story was left unfinished. As of October 2019, almost two decades after the last game released, development of Shenmue 3 is underway.
ーRight, the moments when the creator’s will shines brightest are great.
Hashino: After all, going against the conventional wisdom that says, “This is just how these things are” is more interesting, right?
When Atlus hired me, who could barely use a computer, I think it really was a gamble on their part (laughs). In do-or-die situations where the player doesn’t know how things will turn out, it’s amazing when you’re able to get a good reaction out of them. So in order for that to happen, while I do “calculate” where possible, I also want the result of the gamble to be revealed right at the very end.
ーTaking a risk on uncharted regions, huh? I feel like that attitude is also reflected in the proposal document for Persona 3.
Though, it’s not so simple to convince everyone to come along with the same attitude. That’s why I thought, if I present the themes in this proposal and get all the staff on the same page, then I’ll be able to get feedback about what’s good and what’s not, regarding the objectives in the document.
I also wanted to explain to everyone that it’s not like I want to make decisions and request things just based on my own personal preferences. Maybe that’s why I wrote so much in this proposal.
ーIt seems more like propaganda, no? Stirring up commotion for a cause.
Hashino: I guess it’s possible I did that unconsciously. I wasn’t actively trying to go for that, though.
ーBut anyway, it’s really fantastic. I’d want to bring it home with me.
Hashino: I think it’s more like a cringey poem written in the passion of youth (laughs).
ー(Laughs) Mr. Hashino, the way you formed your band of rebels with this red proposal document, and the revolution-like way the game began development with the company’s young blood, I think it’s very dramatic.
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