The Switch has been unvieled! What does everyone think of it? Sorry that featured comments are pretty weak this week. I’m behind on sleep due to the Switch Event.
This article looks at comments made from January 4th-January 10th
There’s a lot of comments to respond to — over 16 pages (Usually I have 5 pages to respond to!). I’m sorry in advance if I don’t respond to your comments.
Remember, don’t insult other posters. If you insult other posters, your post that you might have spent so much time on might not get approved, and thrown in the trash. Stay classy!
MagcargoMan
I honestly believe there was someone who placed higher than Bayonetta on both the US and Japanese polls and that Bayo got in over said character due to being easier and because SEGA’s been chummy with Nintendo lately.
I found it rather suspicious that Sakurai said she was in the Top 5 for the US instead of her specific place and the he didn’t even mention at all where she placed in the Japanese one,
From:
I agree with you — I don’t think Bayonetta placed high enough in the Japanese data to warrant mention. In my own research, I placed Bayonetta in the top 20. It’s important to remember that Bayonetta was said to be the most realizable, and not the most popular. I think ease of development, interest and popularity led to Bayonetta being picked.
ex275w
Well we don’t know if Corrin is a one-off. Thinking about it though, Ike does seem really improbable since if he was to be removed it wouldn’t been in this title since he wasn’t relevant to the franchise but was relevant due to being in Brawl.
I brought up the sales because in Japan, the country that Smash Bros. that Smash Bros. was created in part to celebrate it’s video game character Fire Emblem as a brand and property is a bigger fish than when looked at a global perspective. Comparing Japanese sales shows that Mario, Zelda, Metroid routinely sell much more in America than Japan almost by a factor of 2+ copies per copy sold in Japan. Few IPs have more proportional sales in Japan than in America.
If I’m not mistaken all the DLC followed a theme:
Mewtwo: Most requested cut character
Roy: Most requested cut Melee character
Lucas: Most requested cut Brawl Character
Ryu: Popular fighting Game Character
Cloud: character popular in America
Bayonetta: Smash Ballot winner popular in Europe
Now Sakurai did mention he decided to make the final DLC for some reason he wanted to promote an upcoming game, he even admits this in the Direct. I mean plenty of stages concern the most recent title in a franchise. NSMB 2 only has a stage to promote that game. So sure you have Splatoon and that was big so that doesn’t need promotion and the game is out worldwide, Xenoblade Chronicles X didn’t do so hot in Japan and that was the other upcoming game was fire Emblem Fates.
So Corrin meets the requirements he may have looked for,
– Game is not released in parts of the world so it can be promoted
– Character is popular in Japan
– Character has distinctive traits as a fighter
Judging again by Fates’s sales Sakurai I think hit it right on the money. I would’ve preferred ELMA myself though.
What I mean with Charizard, Lucario and Mewtwo is that they are popular Pokemon but new mons like Greninja might’ve made overtaken them in the franchise if they didn’t do something to reinvigorate their popularity. Not a coincidence that Lucario is the poster boy for Mega Evolution and Mewtwo and Charizard have 2 Mega Evolutions. Mewtwo also got a movie where it mega evolves and Charizard X was revealed in the Pokemon Origins Special. Helps that you could get them in the newest games.
With Fire Emblem it has the same trait as Pokemon in that it is constantly putting new faces in the limelight. You can’t suddenly bring Ike back in Fire Emblem except as DLC or a remake. So Fire Emblem characters run into the same problem as Jigglypuff where the reason they would be continue to be around is because they were in the past Smash games. I guess they would eventually become retro picks but still, imagine the next Smash comes out and they put another 2 Fire Emblem characters from FE15, but don’t cut out the current ones because well they are popular fighters. Now Fire Emblem has more characters as Mario.
From:
I think Corrin really benefited from timing. Color Splash or Paper Jam came out too late, but Xenlobade X came out too early. But I really agree with your comment. One thing I’d change is Cloud to the most popular FF character. Fire Emblem needs the timing more, as you mentioned have more one off characters.
anonymous SG fan
I guess what I meant was that franchise representation is only one of the criteria when choosing characters, so that focusing on only franchise representation when talking about excluding a character isn’t a convincing argument. I think before the DLC, people thought of franchise representation as a ‘golden rule’ in terms of the Smash roster, when now we can see it’s obviously just one of many factors that influences the roster.
From:
Yeah franchise balance is something that’s really important, but it’s not the golden rule. A lot of fans make up rules, and stick them to instead of going back to the source.
anonymous SG fan
I hate to break it to you, but every character in Smash is an ‘advertisement character’ in some form or another.
From:
That’s true, but Sakurai is such a fan of video games I really do think he’s honored to work on these characters. You can see him gushing about it in the Little Mac column.
awesomeaussie27
I’m barely here for a week and I get a featured comment? This is far too generous.
From:
Have another one!
Arthur 97
“…he needs to understand what his customers want without asking them.” Yet he keeps getting our orders wrong.
From:
MagcargoMan
Is it bad I get a sense of dread every time these articles pop up because I know I’m gonna be one of the featured comments? ?
“Not saying K. Rool doesn’t have its’ fans (he certainly does) but a lot of the support felt like bandwagoning instead of genuine support.”
With all due respect, that’s bull****. I think you underestimate how many of us grew up with the DKC games and/or Donkey Kong 64. He’s the main villain of the DK series (his Smash 4 trophy even compares him to Bowser) and has a lot of potential with his surprising agility for a heavyweight and his multi-purpose blunderbuss. I can’t speak for others but getting up to K. Rool in the original Donkey Kong Country for the first time was a very memorable moment, especially after you get the first three hits on him and he starts raining cannonballs down, which usually lined up just in time with when the music shifts to the awesome rock part. He and his crew were also arguably the best part of the cartoon. He’s just such an important part of DK’s history, and I don’t understand how some people can act like not appearing in two games in a row somehow erases all that.
You really want to know a bandwagon character with next to no genuine demand? Sceptile. Nobody asked him prior to Greninja’s reveal, and people only wanted him out of some OCD need to complete the starter triangle. In fact, I’m positive this demand for him in Smash is what lead to him getting into Pokken Tournament, which is fine there, but he really is not popular enough to be in Smash. In fact, I distinctly remember Grovyle being more popular than him in the Brawl days. He was the Grass starter people wanted, mainly due to the one in Mystery Dungeon.
From:
I always feature you because we often disagree, and you usually have an interesting argument. If it was just salt, I wouldn’t feature it.
I know there’s a lot of people who actually like K. Rool, and I grew up with DK64 myself. I was 11 when it came out, and I collected everything. One of my favorite games to play. I don’t have anything against the character personally but I saw a lot of the discussion go as follows:
“We need more DK characters!”
“We need more villains!”
“King K. Rool fits both!”
…instead of geniune love for the character. Not saying everyone who supported K. Rool was bandwagoning, but I felt a lot of people were. Sceptile is another example of this. Filling in imaginary requirements that don’t exist.
ex275w
Might be too ridiculous to implement but I think for a Dragon Quest Hero they could make it like Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings and have the Main characters from Dragon Quest 1-8 since they do all have relatively the same build (slender young man), skills (lightning magic, can equip the boomerang, cast healing magic, have Gigagash), and weapons (Hell the Heroes from 4-6 all use the Zenithian equipment). 9 and 10 do have a customizable character so there there’s no default unlike the other games although 4 does have a gender select option.
It’s why I never understood the Slime pick, the heroes are good choices, although I do think them making different 8 models might be too much of a chore since they might play similar to Link.
From:
J. G. (@GeneralRayburn)
Censored Gaming has a great video on the history of Mortal Kombat in Japan. While the newer games’ retail releases are outlawed, there is a cult following that holds televised tournaments.
Rayman Legends was a Wii U exclusive in Japan and published by Nintendo there.
While Smash Bros. does feel like a vast franchise, there is no global precense, & there aren’t that many third party characters left that would feel special. Apart from Bayonetta and possibly Snake, all the 3rd party characters are actual gaming icons. Including characters for promotional short term endeavors is fine, I keep hearing a Dragon Quest character mentioned here and there, but would that character draw money is another story. Sakurai has said that Japan need more top 10 worldwide sales, well he should know by now that Smash Bros is not going to send American gamers in droves to Gamestop for the latest Fire Emblem.
From:
Will have to check out that video!
We need Bomberman in Smash. Smash as a promotional game has an impact, but as you said it doesn’t make a top 10 game by itself.
Link
Been looking forward to this translation, thank you, can’t wait for the second half ?
From:
Coming out this week! Blame Switch for the delay.
SSJ22Terris
That’s a neat Idea! I’d love to have a dual story line Metroid game. Sylux in particular is good choice, since he’s both not an unknown character, and could reasonably function different from Samus. Plus, it’d be neat to delve into his character more.
From:
Having Sylux as a playable character would be very interesting and could introduce new mechanics into the game (which would mix up gameplay). I’d be down for it.
Kaminari
Like I’m said in Youtube, personally like many many many maaaaaaaaaany hardcore fans of smash, we wanna “cut” characters like Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit (the last one is maybe the most breaking character even in smash, you everyone hate him be just pit in black, i’m know unique final smash and b+fowards….. but still and biggest down character and he too know new compared pit or palutena)
BUT!!!!!! but they would add them as costume slots of Mario, Marth and Pit but keep the special attributes that they have (like Dr. Mario’s down-b or Lucina’s no-tipper), just to have the same play-style if you main those characters, while not cluttering the css.
If Project M can do with Dr. Mario as pallete of mario and still play different, WHY NOT SAKURAI CAN DO THIS???
From:
TBH, I can kind of understand why people get so particular about the layout of the CSS but I also don’t at the same time. I guess giving players sorting options (like year, series order, or alphabetical order) could make be an interesting option. But in the end, it doesn’t really bother me as they have differences. If they were 100% the same, then they should just be an alt.
KL-Cobalt
“He’s just such an important part of DK’s history, and I don’t understand how some people can act like not appearing in two games in a row somehow erases all that.”
I think part of that is mostly due to the fact that despite the history involved, most of Smash 4’s newcomers were based on games that occurred between Brawl and Smash 4’s release cycle. Obviously Duck Hunt (Duo) was the exception, but every other newcomer that was not 3rd party had a game release between those games.
And it’s fairly easy to see why K. Rool wasn’t in: The DK games that came out didn’t have him as the main villain – and that was done on Retro’s part in order to separate themselves from Rare’s legacy – because they knew that following Rare was a tough act to follow, considering how revered the original DKC games are.
I know plenty people see Smash as a game that celebrates Nintendo’s legacy, and I know how much K. Rool means as a part of Donkey Kong’s history, but if the character didn’t show up in a major role – when the general theme of the newcomers are new blood and new interest – then it would be a bit odd for a character to show up who isn’t based on that. The addition of Duck Hunt was odd, but we usually always get a retro rep in some form or fashion, and I don’t think K. Rool has hit that threshold.
As far as bandwagoning is concerned: While K. Rool was always a popular choice, I don’t think anyone could deny that when Sakurai put his foot down on Ridley, that there was a significant increase of volume in backing K. Rool. K. Rool did become the new Ridley – and as it stands who knows if K. Rool will make it in – it all depends on if they are willing to listen to fans or if there would be a new Donkey Kong game that features K. Rool as a prominent role.
“You really want to know a bandwagon character with next to no genuine demand? Sceptile. Nobody asked him prior to Greninja’s reveal, and people only wanted him out of some OCD need to complete the starter triangle. In fact, I’m positive this demand for him in Smash is what lead to him getting into Pokken Tournament, which is fine there, but he really is not popular enough to be in Smash. In fact, I distinctly remember Grovyle being more popular than him in the Brawl days. He was the Grass starter people wanted, mainly due to the one in Mystery Dungeon.”
And Sceptile/Grovyle were outdated by the time those games came out. I think the issue there is mostly promoting the latest flavor in Pokemon, and even then, Pokemon that have become fan favorites like Lucario and Greninja will likely not go out of style. Pokemon Trainer and later Charizard seem to be an exception there because Pokemon Trainer represented team balance and Charizard’s popularity as well as being already there in a sense helped him become a sole character.
From:
Yeah, there was a significant increase in support for K. Rool after Ridley’s fate was determined. Another thing, is a lot of casual Nintendo fans don’t know who K. Rool is anymore.
Yeah, the dude loves his years. He really is invested in video game history.
Peridot Gem
Snake got taken out because of Konami. That wasn’t even Sakurai’s fault and you know it.
The Pokemon Trainer got axed due to the limitations of the 3ds so it would make sense that he went by picking one of the three and going by the most popular one. It’s a shame but hopefully we can get Red and his crew back on the Switch.
Wolf didn’t make it because of how Star Fox has been on a decline lately nothing but 64 remakes. At least back in the Brawl era there was actual original games. That’s likely the reason Wolf got in the first place: Star Fox’s success.
You already know the deal with Ice Climbers.
But really I want to see everyone return.
From:
I’d still argue it’s Sakurai’s fault. I think Konami would’ve allowed it for me. Everything else I agree on.
Peridot Gem
F-Zero hasn’t gotten a game in a long time though, Only references due to him showing up in Smash.
I don’t really think Chibi-Robo is all that major…. Only 5 games after all.
Shame. If only the series would return.
From:
Not sure how 5 games aren’t major. Wario had less than that when he was a frontrunner for Melee. Olimar got in with only 2 games as well.
That’s it for this time! Stay tuned for more featured comments.
Latest posts by PushDustIn
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To trying to be rude to people discussing it, but all this calculus about “reps” is getting kinda tiresome. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from this site, it’s that Sakurai’s choices are largely circumstantial. We’re just drawing circles around what’s already there and pointing out the arbitrary gaps (like the Sceptile comment above explained). That reasoning makes things myopic and bandwagon-y. Why does K. Rool keep slipping through the cracks? Who knows, but it’s not because Sakurai is or isn’t following made-up fan rules.
*Not trying
Dammit.
lol
I find it odd that people will blame Sakurai for not making K. Rool a newcomer, instead of Retro for leaving out the franchise’s biggest villain from the Returns series. I’d prefer Dixie as a newcomer based on my own experiences with the DKC series, but I think K. Rool is a valid option who would benefit from more exposure in his home series. I think the very fact that he got a Mii Costume means that Sakurai believes he could be a viable newcomer in the future.
Why is it up to Retro? Why does Smash’s roster need to be some flavour-of-the-month that only picks characters it they appeared in a recent game?
This is one of the things I found really lacking in Smash 4’s newcomer selection compared to Brawl’s. It’s really highlighted by All-Star mode where almost half of the newcomers are in the final match.
K. Rool hasn’t had a main-game appearance since the Gamecube; in other words, he hasn’t made a main series appearance on two (soon to be three) home Nintendo consoles. I think it’s fair to say he could use some exposure, preferably in an actual Donkey Kong Country game.
Smash 4 actually had quite a mix of old-school (Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, ect.) and more recently established characters, and plenty in-between as well (Ryu, Cloud, Villager). Sakurai has stated that priority tends to go to characters who are more likely to appear in future titles, so he can’t really be blamed for Retro’s decision to omit K. Rool from the Returns series.
Smash 4’s roster is heavily slanted towards recent characters. Half the old-school ones are third parties and there are barely any in-between characters.
Old School:
– Little Mac
– Palutena (and barely, since she’s 100%-based on Uprising)
– Duck Hunt Duo
– Mega Man (third party)
– Pac-Man (third party)
– Ryu (third party)
In-Between:
– Villager
– Bowser Jr.
– Cloud (third party)
Modern:
– Wii Fit Trainer
– Rosalina
– Greninja
– Mii Fighters
– Robin
– Lucina
– Shulk
– Dark Pit
– Corrin
– Bayonetta (third party)
I’m not sure if Ryu counts as old school or in-between (I went with the former). The original came out in 1987 but nobody cared about Street Fighter until Street Fighter II, which was in 1991.
Sakurai has already shown he has a general disinterest in the DK series beyond it’s arcade days. It has nothing to do with Retro Studios.
Considering the entire roater outside of newcomers are either old school or middle, I don’t see any issue with newcomer representation in Smash 4.
Sakurai has already shown more respect for K. Rool as DKs nemesis than Retro has across two mainline DK games, so I’m not sure what you mean by that.
I wouldn’t call being made into an ill-advised Mii Fighter costume “respect”.
Sounds like a matter of perspective on your part more than Sakurai’s… I always considered it a compliment.
That’s just how the trend looked like to me.
– Junior 1st appeared in Sunshine, but he also didn’t really have much of a ‘gimmick’ until NSMBW
– Rosalina appeared in Galaxy and became a series staple
– Little Mac had the Wii-vival in 2009 and his appearance in Smash is a combination of his look from that game and his arcade roots
– Villager had City Folk and New Leaf
– Wii Fit Trainer had Wii Fit and Wii Fit U
– Greninja had Pokemon X & Y
– Robin and Lucina were from Fire Emblem Awakening
– Shulk came from Xenoblade Chronicles
– Palutena and Dark Pit (to an extent) came from Kid Icarus Uprising
All those games or characters in said series made appearances in games from 2008 to 2012 when either the game started development or was in the middle of it (As Greninja was chosen before X&Y came out – based on concept art)
And that excludes 3rd party, DLC, and Duck Hunt.
In contrast to Brawl, where the majority of the characters that were newcomers were characters that were series staples and highly requested like Diddy Kong, Dedede, Meta Knight, and Wario to an extent (I don’t think most expected Wario to take on WarioWare)
So no, they don’t always have to be the flavor of the month, but that DID seem to be the trend this go around.
Bowser Jr. had the paintbrush before NSMBW.
And yet that wasn’t enough to make him a playable character in Brawl – it was used for his Final Smash in Smash 4 though… So…
Sorry about that…
“Yeah franchise balance is something that’s really important, but it’s not the golden rule. A lot of fans make up rules, and stick them to instead of going back to the source.”
A lot of it runs on precedents though. As there really seems to be no rhyme or reason any more, I’m not convinced Sakurai actually has set rules or if he makes them up depending on the situation. He does seem to be forgetting who signs his check at times though.
Nah. Snake got in Brawl in the first place due to Metal Gear’s creator begging Sakurai. After he left there was no middle ground left to push Snake in. I heavily doubt Konami would’ve allowed it. They aren’t really close to Nintendo. Except for when they come back to the Switch since everyone’s with it. Let’s just hope he returns.
*came
Honestly, I don’t see a reason in bringing the croc king into Smash as a playable fighter. Sure, he has played multiple roles such as a pirate and a scientist, but so did Bowser and even he doesn’t use the techniques that are given to him while he played those roles. They’re likely going to add him as a (semi-)clone character rather than a unique character as a last-minute fan-service if they get the opportunity to do so since he would end up as just another heavyweight fighter.
“Just another heavyweight fighter” seems like an odd comment to make, seeing as there aren’t all that many of them. (And I don’t think Smash 4 added any, though I could be wrong about that)
Also, making him a semi-clone (presumably of Bowser?) doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense, since they have very little in common outside of being reptiles and kings. Bowser’s more of a hands-on fighter, while K. Rool tends to fight with traps and weapons. (Outside of DK64, where he was a boxer, sort of)
You don’t see a reason why the Bowser of the DK series should be in Smash? When did Bowser play a pirate and scientist? Mario Party? That’s a really bad comparison given those were just costumes while when K. Rool did he actually used appropriate weapons and equipment (Blunderbuss for Kaptain K. Rool, Copter Pack and Electric Traps for Baron K. Roolenstein).
And would he even be a clone? I’m guessing your referring to Bowser, but K. Rool can’t breathe fire or hide in a spiked shell.
Also, what does “another heavyweight fighter” even mean? Is Wario just another “heavyweight fighter” with nothing special about him? Is weight class all it takes to dismiss a character?
“You don’t see a reason why the Bowser of the DK series should be in Smash?”
At times, not really… As many have said it sounds half the time like people are trying to fulfill a quota, just like your comment about Sceptile for OCD Pokemon fans who want everything to be balanced.
It also seems like you’re taking the trophy description a tad too literal, considering this go around the trophies for Pokemon included things like lyrics to a song unknown to Japan or specifically mentioned anime characters – don’t know if they did in the Japanese version. (or K. Rool’s trophy for that matter.)
People considered him the Bowser of the DK series long before Smash 4. And it’s not a villain quota, it’s pointing out his significance to the DK series.
Another thing that should be noted is despite people bringing up how he was replaced with new villains, said new villians were one-offs. I don’t think we’ll ever see Tiki Tong again, and I don’t forsee another game with the Snowmads as the main villians.
They’re mostly one-offs because the series hasn’t expanded upon them as villains. Who knows, the Snowmads could appear in a later game, and the Tikis could get their revenge.
The bandwagon can’t really be that significant to his overall popularity. You don’t get to be one of the most wanted newcomers simply by being needed to bolster a series’ representation. I mean, based on the evidence you gathered for these two articles, there surely must have been a lot of genuine demand:
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/02/19/perception-of-smash-dlc-in-japan/
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/13/japantopdlcpt2/
I think what would drive the point home is the whole “we need more DK characters” thing. Let’s say that in the next game DK was adequately represented with four characters, with the two new ones being Dixie and Cranky. Even with now having a worthy amount of characters I don’t think this would significantly lower the amount of K. Rool support. Granted, I’d hope this scenario doesn’t happen because if there was four DK characters in and K. Rool wasn’t one of them then if I couldn’t conscientiously demand him for said instalment due to overrepping (I think five DK characters would be pushing it, what about you?).
“I think five DK characters would be pushing it, what about you?”
That’s relative to the roster size as a whole really. For a roster the size of Smash 4 it might be pushing it, but you’re talking about future games here so 5 DK characters could be perfectly reasonable. How many Mario characters are in this theoretical future Smash game 😛
I’d say it’d be between sixty to seventy characters for my hypothetical roster, so there’d probably be 6 or 7 Mario characters (not including spin-offs like Yoshi and Wario). I think four DK characters would be enough; gotta save room for characters from unrepresented series.
Um… Isn’t Donkey Kong kinda considered a Mario Spin-off? I mean, by the very nature of how Nintendo markets the series as a whole, it is.
But when you’re citing Yoshi and Wario as spin-offs, then what exactly does that make Donkey Kong? Yeah, he has his own series icon, but that argument could also be made for Yoshi and Wario – and then they should be given the same treatment as DK.
What makes Donkey Kong so special that it should be treated as a separate series within Smash and yet pull the shaft on Yoshi and Wario?
DK and Mario split-off from the same game. He’s not like Yoshi and Wario who debuted in actual Mario games and got spin-offs later. Remember it’s DK’s name on the debut game and not Mario’s. Smash treats the Donkey Kong arcade game and Donkey Kong Jr. has as part of the DK series. 75m is under the DK logo, and the Hammer and Spring items are treated as DK items in the trophies section.
Yoshi is pretty much a Mario character. He still shows up regularly in the platformers. Even his games feature a lot of Mario enemies and elements. Don’t forget the main bad guys are Baby Bowser and Kamek, a magikoopa.
I think Wario is somewhat his own thing, but not fully. WarioWare on it’s own? Yeah definitely it’s own series. Wario Land’s sorta it’s own thing, but has some ties to Mario (especially the first one). I think what fully stops him from being his own thing is how he still frequently shows up in Mario spin-offs and how his very design is based on Mario’s. I still advocate for a second Wario character though.
I think whether or not King K. Rool is known among casual gamers, he still would be a great pick for Smash. Plus that scene where *spoiler alert* the credits roll and then he gets back up is a very iconic and memorable moment in video games. I’d really like to recreate that moment in Smash >:D