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Filed under: Industry People, Masahiro Sakurai, Super Smash Bros. Series

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Lots of videos/discussions/ opinion pieces this week due to the Switch being unveiled. For those of you who don’t really care about that kind of content, please be patient!
This article looks at comments made from January 10th-16th

There’s a lot of comments to respond to — over 16 pages (Usually I have 5 pages to respond to!). I’m sorry in advance if I don’t respond to your comments.

Remember, don’t insult other posters. If you insult other posters, your post that you might have spent so much time on might not get approved, and thrown in the trash. Stay classy!

[su_spoiler title=”Arthur 97” style=”fancy”]
Yeah, Sakurai doesn’t own Smash, so long as there is no contract preventing it for 4, Nintendo can do what they want.

 

From: Rumor Betting: Switch Event
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Nope, he doesn’t! It’s just a courtesy thing, and he is well respected among the other Nintendo developers. See this column for the story behind Brawl, which is particularly interesting!

 

[su_spoiler title=”  ” style=”fancy”]

WarioWare for sure! I was surprised it didn’t make use of all the features the 3DS had to offer…

While they’re at it, I hope a new Advance Wars comes around…

From: SG Choice: Most Wanted Switch Game
[/su_spoiler]
Right? A WarioWare with a lame 3D story would’ve been great! AW is long overdue 🙁

[su_spoiler title=”cedrickterrick” style=”fancy”]
Yeah I know, but there is no “generic” Impa. She is always a completly different character. Impas Bigoron Sword is based on a Goron weapon of Link and the Naginata is based on a Gerudo weapon.
It doesn’t make sense to include her only for “making the Zelda representation bigger”.

From: What Characters Could be CUT in “Smash for Switch”?
[/su_spoiler]
This. Pretty much when a lot of people want Impa, they just want more Zelda representation. They aren’t requesting Impa as a character for her own attributes.

[su_spoiler title=”MagcargoMan” style=”fancy”]

I think the first one is a guarantee if the Switch does indeed have Gamecube games on the Virtual Console. There’s no way they wouldn’t have a game as popular as Melee missing from the line-up.

I’ve come to accept that Smash for Switch will more than likely be a Smash 4 port. Just hope the new content features enough that I want to make me feel better about buying this game for the third time.

Pokemon Stars is definitely gonna happen, what with the data-mining pointing towards it. The real question is whether we’ll see it at launch.

Ubisoft will support the Switch, but we’re gonna see a lot of ports from them first besides Just Dance 2017. I don’t think they’ll jump ship as they did with the Wii U because the Switch seems “safer”, for lack of a better word.

For the share button, I don’t see why not. The PS4 has it. It’s not like it’s some foreign concept nobody has ever done before.

There’s no way they’ll drop Miiverse. They might change it up a little, but they will definitely not axe such a feature for no good reason.

From: Rumor Betting: Switch Event
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Yeah, if GC VC happens, Melee HAS to be there. Especially with Trinen being the huge fan he is.
I hope so too/
I think it’ll come later next year. They probably wanted to give Sun and Moon some time for their own.
Man, I was surprised with them attempting to release Rayman Legends AGAIN ont he Switch.
It’s a Nintendo thing to axe good ideas.

[su_spoiler title=”haruhisailormars” style=”fancy”]

Actually it isn’t because they hate Sakurai. We all know his contribution to the series. Most want him to go because he is getting tired of producing the series and they want to see what a new producer would do with the series.

Sakurai getting sick of the series could negatively affect it because he could start making very bad decisions. I personally want to see a new producer because I feel these two games have been the high point and Sakurai won’t be able to top them. Also I think that eventually it does get to the point where he has to give it up and trust somebody else.

From: Rumor Betting: Switch Event
[/su_spoiler]
Yup! We actually wrote the pros and cons of why Sakurai should and shouldn’t come back. I contributed to both of them. Even though I see Sakurai’s value as a director, there are some things that could potentially change, for the better with a new director. It all depends on who it is.

[su_spoiler title=”GreatMeat” style=”fancy”]

Alright, Fire Emblem Warriors is happening! ^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POsTR5iy_TI

From: SG Choice: What Crossover do you Want?
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This made me smile that you came back to post that!

[su_spoiler title=”black_imperator” style=”fancy”]

Question to Push : you mentioned the live translating killing some energy. I’ve felt the 3rd party particularly low on that front, particularly the sega guy which seemed to have nothing to say. Was it better in japanese ?

In general, i think the presentation would have benefited from a more detailed focus on the third party games ( at least names appearing in the mash-up trailer toward the end) but the first year line-up looks solid and easily compensates the relatively weak launch one. The paid online worries me a bit as a game like splatoon will live or die by the online cost. The only real negative point is the seriously overpriced accessories in my opinion.

From: Switch Presentation – Initial Reactions
[/su_spoiler]
3rd Parties overall were pretty medicore, but the rest of the presentation definetly suffered from the translators being very complicate. ARMs and Goichi Suda were the clear losers of the English translation.

[su_spoiler title=”zoniken” style=”fancy”]

ve watch the presentation (not Direct) on real-time, and as being honestly, it was great! Source Gaming really gave me a good tip of hyping responsibly, and since I wasn’t expecting anything at that moment, there were many surprises. I mean, I think I should correct that as “few” surprises, but I’ll explain that later…

The console itself was interestingly made with uniqueness. I was wondering where the LR buttons are on the joy-cons, how it’ll work as a regular controller and a new Wii remote, and how to read amiibos. Everything was answered, and I’m relieved.

The games were something I was interested to see the most. 1, 2 Switch…pretty not impressive for the one with no family and friends to play with. Arms…looks awkward for a new IP, but can be the new Punch Out if it goes okay. Skyrim and Shin-Megami Tensei…not interested as I was never a fan of those. But leaving the weird ones aside, I was well surprised with the other major titles. Mario Odyssey looks great as it brought the open world mechanic back, and using the hat as his new weaponry move (and a spin dash-like move)…everything looked so beautifully great! When I first saw the city with realistic humans in the scene, I thought it was another Sonic Adventure game. But when I saw Mario pop out from the sewers…I was like what the hell’s going on!? Mario in Sonic’s world!? Yeah things did look awkward back there but even then the new stages were entirely interestingly great. And since we see Mario’s hat being alive as almost becoming the new FLUDD, while we’ve seen both Mario and Bowser the new hipster lord uses their hats as weapons, Mario going into a Crazy Cap store, and Mario riding on a hat-like ship, I think this Mario’s new theme’s gonna be hats. This new Mario game was a great surprise for me, and I do like to play it!

Splatoon 2 looked great too! Not just the Inkling’s customization become more unique, but using two guns at a time, using a robo vacuum cleaner as a sub weapon, using a pump as a jet pack…everything looked so great than the first game! But its disappointing that you still can’t play as the Octlings sine the Octarians return for revenge, but the characters were interesting…Judge’s new kitty companion, and a kimono female Inkling that almost looks like Marie? Taking place in two years after the first game seems to have something behind secretly, but can’t wait to play it!

Mario Kart 8 DX looked interestingly great! They’ve fixed the battle mode and brought returning items, while they’ve brought back King Boo, Dry Bones and Bowser Jr. While the returning characters wasn’t that fascinating to be honest, but the inclusion of the Inklings was something I was more surprised on. However, since this game wasn’t fully introduced in the presentation, we don’t even know if there’s gonna be new single race stages or any new content so far. The characters were said to be 40 of them, and as I calculated the characters from the previous game including the DLCs and adding the returners and Inklings…yup, that’s 40 total alright. So we may not have anymore new and returning characters after this, if they’re planning to add more in the future like DLCs. But even then, I’m looking forward for it!

BOTW looked more beautiful than expected. Characters can now talk in full voice (while we know Link’s gonna be muted for the rest of his life), and they all sound awesome! Even Zelda looked so great, even wearing the same outfit of Link’s…and who said there’d be a female Link!? Stupid info scammers. But as the game is ultimately open world as there’s so many things to do, this game really gives me a lot of interest to play it, even I hardly play any Zelda games (except for Hyrule Warriors).

Although it wasn’t fully introduced, there were more other games that surprised me. Bomberman returns in his 33rd Anniversary game Super Bomberman R, which proves Konami DIDN’T kill Hudson’s main mascot for good. Well, not to mention another Hudson’s franchise Momotaro Dentetsu made its comeback too not too long ago, so this made sense as Konami’s trying to revive Hudson’s games at least. Fire Emblem Warriors is something we’ve been predicting about, but still it was a surprise for me. Somebody even made this fanart 8 YEARS AGO (http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=7294806), and it finally became true!! Although I’m not a FE fan, I’m definitely looking forward to play it! Thank you Koei Tecmo! Also as a Sonic fan, I’m glad Sonic Mania finally made it to Switch as it wasn’t planned in the beginning. Now I can play the nostalgia once again! And Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 making it to Switch is another surprise I’ve had since I don’t own any PS and Xbox consoles, which I could finally bring out my own Majin girl and Frieza avatar to the game!

Now does everybody still think I’m being too generous here? No, I’m being honest, and if you wanna hear me be more honest, then here are the negative parts. The online subscription may have been a huge thing of this presentation, that you need to pay whenever you need to go online. Well, since I hardly go online, except for Splatoon which its a must, I don’t think that’ll matter me at this point. Also, slight disappointed that there was no info on Smash port and Pokemon Stars, but wasn’t THAT disappointed since I wasn’t expecting any of it yet. And also the launch titles weren’t enough as most of them were summer and holiday releases, which probably pulled the trigger. These lacks possibly made the presentation and the Switch itself become negatively received. Not to mention Nintendo have ultimately lost 5.75% of their stock market right after the presentation was over, which seems to be a huge damage to the company. So this may not be Switch’s best starting point at all, but its still a beginning. Things may change further in the future, so we can expect to see more light on this new generation.

Finally, am I gonna get the console? Definitely, but not yet. Not just there’s not many games to play in the beginning, but need to save some money for better reasons. So far, I’m waiting for the Smash port and Pokemon Stars info, and I think they’ll say something about it in March after the console release. Sure, rumors can’t be trusted, but it’s something we should look forward for it, as long we hype responsibly (remember Source Gaming’s #1 rule!). Overall, negatives aside, this presentation was good. Not perfect, but good as well, which I give 75% ratings.

From: Switch Presentation – Initial Reactions
[/su_spoiler]
Thanks for taking the time to write  up your review! I think a “wait and see” approach for the console is probably the best solution. It’s going to have good games, but it’ll take time. The launch lineup (Day 1) is pretty weak.

[su_spoiler title=”KL-Cobalt” style=”fancy”]

“What the hell was 2016 for?”

You mean the announcement trailer for the Switch or the severe lack of games and lackluster games (excluding a few gems like Kirby Robobot, and Sun/Moon)

Because the Announcement trailer was simple – Hype. Hype and silencing people prodding on and on about the NX while getting the Switch ready.

2016 in Nintendo games? Obvious most of the developers within Nintendo are still working on new titles and they weren’t ready to show.

Now as for my reaction…

– Presentation: Yeah, it would be better to do a direct, but it wasn’t really aimed at fans, it was aimed at investors seemingly more so given all the businessmen in the audience. The English translators flubbed badly.

– Controller is neat. We kinda got the idea of what it’s going to do with the initial trailer, but HEY we have to add motion controls! At the very least 3rd parties can now seemingly ignore them in favor of straight porting if they’re doing a bigger game.

– Paid Online: I already have two years of Playstation Plus stacked on my PS4. It’s a pain going from not paying for Internet to having to do so on Nintendo systems, but if I can stack it like I already do for Playstation, I’ll be fine: get the Internet all paid for and done with in one fell swoop.

– 1, 2, Switch… It’s the Wii Sports and Nintendoland of this system, but since it’s not a pack-in deal, I honestly can’t see it being that big a hit. And to be frank, I’m not interested in it. A video game where you don’t have to look at the screen in order to play – kinda takes a dump on the very definition of VIDEO game, wouldn’t you say? Who’s to say, but I think it’ll fail.

– ARMS: LEGS jokes aside… Call me KL-Conspiracy, but I think this game could actually end up being an eSport title down the line, should the game mechanics end up deep enough to be more competitive. After all, Melee might be faster than other Smash titles, but the original speed the game is meant to be played was definitely not tournament level when people first started playing, only finding out ways to make the game faster to develop a whole metagame behind it. I could see ARMS possibly having the same kind of feel to it – if people can break ARMs to make higher level play a thing, I could see it become a hit in the competitive scene. It’s not a launch title though

– Super Mario Odyssey: Not a launch title… And thus sadness begins. But hey, it’s a game focused on globe-trotting, and I like how the Mushroom World is more than just the Mushroom Kingdom. Realistic proportioned humans next to Mario seems odd, honestly – it wasn’t so much with Sonic in Sonic Adventure, but Mario’s a human so it just makes it seem odd. Numerous nods to DKC in the city level which is good. And hey, it’s the 1st 3D Mario where you don’t seem to be limited to a single path since Sunshine, so that’s pretty cool.

– Splatoon 2: Not a launch title… But it’ll get her sooner than Mario Odyssey. A more traditional controlled Splatoon, Gyro control is still there. We also now have dodge rolls, which no one else seems to talk about. It was also not Splatoon remastered, it’s a legit sequel.

– Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Looking forward to it. I need to get back into the 1st game…

– Fire Emblem Warriors: I can expect plenty complaining that Fire Emblem is getting more focus, but the franchise is a hot commodity to Nintendo right now – it makes sense to tease that, especially to a Japanese audience, than say a new Metroid where the series isn’t hot there.

– Breath of the Wild: Love it. Just pure and simple. I like that Link is seemingly getting some friends – at least in cutscenes. We have the Rito AND the Zora in the game – Rito Archer looks like the best character so far. Best point – It’s a Launch Title! (I couldn’t get the Master Edition though…)

– Mario Kart 8 Deluxe: Pretty much what everyone interested in Mario Kart predicted what was going to get: Junior, Dry Bones, Inklings. No Diddy, and I’m personally sad that Kirby isn’t in (The Kirby series fits in SO well with the Mario cast) but we also finally have a proper Battle Mode. It’s also coming in April, so yay – Might not be for Launch, but not too far away. Not sure why it wasn’t given a segment, but then again investors. I am worried that there’s no Miis. Now I won’t even have a Kirby mii suit…

– Skyrim: People noted the lack of ‘Special Edition’ and are wondering if this will be the original version. I doubt it’d be the case, and the lack of ‘Special Edition’ was simply a lack of communication. Would be bad if it was though. It’s also not launch day, but instead will be a Fall release. REALLY?

– Lack of Smash, GCN VC, etc.: Probably the same reason why Mario Kart 8 wasn’t shown in the presentation itself, Smash will likely be a port, it wasn’t ready to be shown (I have a feeling showcasing Smash and how to hook the Gamecube controllers to the thing would take away from the JoyCons they spent time focusing on…), and it wasn’t shown because investors. Nintendo wanted to sell the system on how ‘revolutionary’ it is, which is likely why the focus for a good half of the thing was about the controller, battery life, price, noting Online services, and companies interested in making games for the Switch, instead of what fans exclusively want to see from Nintendo: Games. I believe we’ll see these things down the line in a more fan focused Nintendo Direct, but it was clear this wasn’t a show for the fans, but Nintendo wanted the fans to see and help gauge a reaction.
From: Switch Presentation – Initial Reactions
[/su_spoiler]
Severe lack of games in 2016, overall lack of support for the Wii U. The Wii U is going to become a forgotten system with its’ games being ported to the 3DS and Switch. Thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts though! Hoping to see more things down the line, and at a steady rate!

[su_spoiler title=”Anime9001” style=”fancy”]
What do you think are the chances that there isn’t a new Smash in the works at all? By the sound of the video you seem to think it’s still coming no matter what, so I’m just curious.

From: Why Wasn’t Smash Shown?
[/su_spoiler]
Way more likely than not.

[su_spoiler title=”zoniken” style=”fancy”]

I could agree that the presentation was mainly focused upon the console itself, and that would make sense why many game titles were less introduced. Nintendo’s Damon Baker later answered that there would be more titles upcoming that hasn’t been introduced yet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX8p9e0mY8&t=0s), so maybe we can expect more on launch date if possible. For Smash for Switch’s case, I think Mr. Link’s comment above is more plausible. E3 reveal does make sense for a surprise on stage, and I do remember they did the same thing from Smash for 3DS/Wii U’s time, so its plausible. Plus creating a new fighter takes for months, and if only two characters be added newly, and if this was in production after the last patch was updated last year, then I think the game should be ready in the first six months.

But still, this whole Smash for Switch case is still on its rumor stage, so we can’t find out if the rumor is true or false. But only thing we can do so far is to hype responsibly.

From: Why Wasn’t Smash Shown?
[/su_spoiler]
Yeah, them holding on the amiibo announcement is strange. We already saw a bit of Bayonetta’s amiibo…so we know they are still coming…sometime. To me, the lack of the last three amiibo makes me believe the rumor even more.

[su_spoiler title=”Burb” style=”fancy”]

It could be because Laura Kate Dale and company are full of ****.

Just a theory.

From: Why Wasn’t Smash Shown?
[/su_spoiler]
Rumor has no connection to LKD and co. Here are the details of the rumor.

[su_spoiler title=”MagcargoMan” style=”fancy”]

The K. Rool costume isn’t so much a prize as it is a kick in the ‘nads.

From: Mii Fighter Costumes: Consolation Prizes?
[/su_spoiler]
I was pretty stoked about Takamaru getting a costume, even if he didn’t become a full fighter. Just a difference of opinion I guess.

[su_spoiler title=”boblennonsg” style=”fancy”]
I find it odd that people will blame Sakurai for not making K. Rool a newcomer, instead of Retro for leaving out the franchise’s biggest villain from the Returns series. I’d prefer Dixie as a newcomer based on my own experiences with the DKC series, but I think K. Rool is a valid option who would benefit from more exposure in his home series. I think the very fact that he got a Mii Costume means that Sakurai believes he could be a viable newcomer in the future.

From: Featured Comments
[/su_spoiler]
That’s possible. See this article for an argument about Mii Fighters being a consolation prize.

[su_spoiler title=”MagcargoMan” style=”fancy”]

The bandwagon can’t really be that significant to his overall popularity. You don’t get to be one of the most wanted newcomers simply by being needed to bolster a series’ representation. I mean, based on the evidence you gathered for these two articles, there surely must have been a lot of genuine demand:
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/02/19/perception-of-smash-dlc-in-japan/
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/13/japantopdlcpt2/

I think what would drive the point home is the whole “we need more DK characters” thing. Let’s say that in the next game DK was adequately represented with four characters, with the two new ones being Dixie and Cranky. Even with now having a worthy amount of characters I don’t think this would significantly lower the amount of K. Rool support. Granted, I’d hope this scenario doesn’t happen because if there was four DK characters in and K. Rool wasn’t one of them then if I couldn’t conscientiously demand him for said instalment due to overrepping (I think five DK characters would be pushing it, what about you?).

From: Featured Comments
[/su_spoiler]
A lot of the comments that I read in English and Japanese were along the lines of “DKC needs more reps! We need more villains!”

Oh yeah, I think 5 reps for DKC would be pushing it. I think 4 would be great (If 1 was a clone or a semi clone).

[su_spoiler title=”Bob Lennon” style=”fancy”]

K. Rool hasn’t had a main-game appearance since the Gamecube; in other words, he hasn’t made a main series appearance on two (soon to be three) home Nintendo consoles. I think it’s fair to say he could use some exposure, preferably in an actual Donkey Kong Country game.

Smash 4 actually had quite a mix of old-school (Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, ect.) and more recently established characters, and plenty in-between as well (Ryu, Cloud, Villager). Sakurai has stated that priority tends to go to characters who are more likely to appear in future titles, so he can’t really be blamed for Retro’s decision to omit K. Rool from the Returns series.

From: Featured Comments
[/su_spoiler]
When King K. Rool’s costume was introduced in the marquee on top in-game, it said “Retro Revival”. I think K. Rool could come back in the base roster, but not as DLC as he lacks the recent exposure.

[su_spoiler title=”takamaru64” style=”fancy”]
What’s even more hilarious are people bandwagoning for these characters to join Smash when the game is barely out.

From: ARMS Discussion
[/su_spoiler]
I think Spring Man could replace Corrin. 😛 (I kid, I kid)

[su_spoiler title=”KL-Cobalt” style=”fancy”]

That’s just how the trend looked like to me.

– Junior 1st appeared in Sunshine, but he also didn’t really have much of a ‘gimmick’ until NSMBW
– Rosalina appeared in Galaxy and became a series staple
– Little Mac had the Wii-vival in 2009 and his appearance in Smash is a combination of his look from that game and his arcade roots
– Villager had City Folk and New Leaf
– Wii Fit Trainer had Wii Fit and Wii Fit U
– Greninja had Pokemon X & Y
– Robin and Lucina were from Fire Emblem Awakening
– Shulk came from Xenoblade Chronicles
– Palutena and Dark Pit (to an extent) came from Kid Icarus Uprising

All those games or characters in said series made appearances in games from 2008 to 2012 when either the game started development or was in the middle of it (As Greninja was chosen before X&Y came out – based on concept art)

And that excludes 3rd party, DLC, and Duck Hunt.

In contrast to Brawl, where the majority of the characters that were newcomers were characters that were series staples and highly requested like Diddy Kong, Dedede, Meta Knight, and Wario to an extent (I don’t think most expected Wario to take on WarioWare)

So no, they don’t always have to be the flavor of the month, but that DID seem to be the trend this go around.

From: Featured Comments
[/su_spoiler]
Spoiler warning!
Actually, most Smash rosters are based on relevant characters. NantenJex has been writing “On Character Selection” (Brawl should’ve come out this week!) [Melee] [64]

 

That’s it for this time! Stay tuned for more featured comments.

34 comments
  1. “This. Pretty much when a lot of people want Impa, they just want more Zelda representation. They aren’t requesting Impa as a character for her own attributes.”

    That’s a pretty bold claim. If people just wanted more Zelda representation then any old Zelda character should do, clearly there more to the reason people gravitate towards Impa for Zelda and King K Rool for Donkey Kong.

    When people say they want Rool and DK needs more reps I don’t know why the assumption is that they just want more DK reps and will push whichever one has the most momentum, as opposed to them genuinely wanting Rool and citing a lack of DK reps as support for why he ought to be included. The same goes for Impa, even if people just want another Zelda rep they’re still elevating Impa above numerous other contenders so clearly she’s being pushed for her own merits over others in her series, not simply by virtue of being a Zelda character.

    At the end of the day none of this should really matter. If Impa got in then the people who supported her would be happy about her inclusion, regardless of their reasons for supporting her. Even if someone just wants her for the sake of getting more Zelda why isn’t that a legitimate reason to desire a character? Is my desire to see a series I love further represented in smash though characters with tangible importance to it’s history and future, worth less than joe schmo’s request for the main character from whatever the latest indie game he played was?

    I don’t like the idea of having one-off Zelda characters in Smash at this stage and it annoys me to see so much support thrown behind whatever new Zelda character is a big deal in the latest game, regardless of how unlikely it is they’ll ever appear beyond it. However, even if I disagree with the reasons for their support I would never presume to claim that the support for that character isn’t completely genuine and every bit as valid as the support I show the characters I desire.

    Mettaur on January 20 |
    • This is rather spot on. If it was merely a matter of having more reps and not a desire for specific characters we would have seen a lot of demand for the next DK character to be Cranky Kong or Lord Fredrik due to Tropical Freeze instead of characters like Dixie and K. Rool who people have been asking for since the post-Melee days. As for Impa, I think the reason we see her requested more than others is because she is one of the few recurring Zelda characters. She was one of the first characters confirmed for Hyrule Warriors after Link for a reason. Also, people seem to forget that she was a popular character in Skyward Sword. Quite frankly she has more reason to be in Smash than Sheik, who now that she is no longer tied to Zelda has no reason to still be in Smash since she’s no less of a one-off than other flavour of the month characters like Ghirahim. Sorta changing the subject but I hate how everyone starts requesting “latest Zelda villain” for every Smash now. Remember how people used to ask for Zant for Brawl?

      Plus quite a few of the people who criticise wanting more reps tend to excuse Fire Emblem having so many as “needing more characters since it’s bigger now”, which means they’re pretty much saying the same thing but for Fire Emblem.

      MagcargoMan on January 21 |
  2. I still don’t get why the “reps” argument gets treated as such a valid one by the fans when we don’t have any precedent for it. Can anyone bring up a single case where a character got in only because their home series “deserved more reps”?

    That isn’t why it happens.

    delzethin on January 20 |
    • Diddy maybe? He wasn’t all that relevant at the time of Brawl despite being iconic.

      SMX on January 20 |
      • A thought on Diddy; at the start of development, Diddy and Dixie were being designed as a tag-team (like in DKC 2), which would have made for a unique gameplay mechanic. However, that concept was scrapped and Diddy remained as his Brawl incarnation, fulfilling the role of a ‘trickster’ of sorts. Series representation may have been a factor, but theres no evidence that it was the deciding factor for his inclusion in Brawl.

        Bob Lennon on January 21 |
    • “Can anyone bring up a single case where a character got in only because their home series “deserved more reps”?”

      Sakurai set a spot aside for “New Pokemon character” in his project plan for Smash 4 before he even chose Greninja.

      MagcargoMan on January 21 |
      • But Greninja wasn’t just a ‘New Pokemon rep’, he was representing Pokémon X and Y, which was still in development when the Smash 4 roster was being decided.

        Bob Lennon on January 21 |
        • So he was added for representation, as I said.

          MagcargoMan on January 21 |
          • That wasn’t the question; Delzethin asked if a character has ever gotten into Smash solely for the sake of a franchise needing more reps, which as I pointed out was not the case with Greninja. Please read more carefully next time.

            Bob Lennon on January 21 |
    • Because, representation is (at least that’s what he said) taken into account. It is not the only factor, but it is something which should be taken into account. Honestly, it should probably be a bigger factor than it is, but that is an argument for another day.

      Arthur 97 on January 21 |
      • I fully agree with this sentiment.

        I hate it when people always go about how reps never matter at all when it’s blatantly untrue.

        SMX on January 21 |
    • Its a perfectly valid standpoint to hold. People are well aware that its not the sole factor in how any character is chosen, nor do they want it to be. Almost no one want a character solely for the sake of having another rep for a certain series, if they did there’d be no reason for them to support said character specifically rather than stating they’d be fine with anyone from said franchise. Also we don’t know the full story behind why a lot of characters were chosen for smash, so the lacking of a precedent could easily be due to lack of information more than lack of it existing. We can theorize it probably played some part in why Metroid and Kirby got more characters in Brawl after being considered under repped in Melee. God knows why else Zero Suit Samus would be at the top of Sakurai’s list. As a whole representation obviously plays some part in the characters we get, hence why Mario consistently has the most representation with Pokemon and Zelda never far behind. Obviously its not the sole reason we get characters, but once again, no one is saying it should be.

      Also regardless of how much of a role it actually plays, we are absolutely allowed to believe it should play a bigger one. There’s no reason we need to just accept the Smash roster and the means by which its selected are perfectly unequivocal and above reproach.

      Mettaur on January 22 |
  3. Glad to see AW is getting love here given the rut it’s in right now and how it’s been Catch 22’d so badly to the point where it’s own dev studio doesn’t want to look at it anymore. It’s hopes of ever being in Smash Bros is also in the gutter now. Truly the Days of Ruin for one of my favorite series ever.

    As for the ARMS discussion I fully see whatever character from that game being the Wii Fit Trainer of the next Smash Bros game though all least the character would be more predictable.

    SMX on January 20 |
  4. You see, the thing about the K. Rool Mii costume is it doesn’t feel like a genuine consolation, but more like “There, K. Rool’s in the game, now stop asking.” When you look at stuff like Proto Man or Dunban, you can see how they’re consolation prizes since these characters will never be playable in Smash, plus they are a cool nod to them. Then there’s costumes for characters Sakurai has wanted to include but was unable to, like Heihachi and Geno. What’s notable though is that these costumes are fitting to the type of Mii Fighter they’re for (Mega Man X as Mii Gunner, Llyod Irving as Mii Brawler etc.). They feel like they were made with an appreciation for the character and they fight the Mii Fighters’ fighting styles appropriately. You can pretend you’re playing as them due to some similarities and the quality-look of the costumes.

    And then you get to the K. Rool outfit, which looks pretty bad as Mii outfit (basically a fat suit), but more importantly, unlike something like the Zero costume for the Mii Swordfighter which can at least allow you to emulate the character in some ways, what in Mii Brawler’s moveset allows you replicate even one thing K. Rool does in the DKC games? Most of the Mii costumes allow you to have a bootleg version of the character in someway, but K. Rool’s is one of the few that does not. It”s clear it wasn’t a product of love like some of the other costumes. I mean, he didn’t go and make Ridley a Mii Fighter outfit, did he? Sakurai may not want Ridley to be playable, but you can see he does care about how the character is portrayed in Smash. Has Sakurai even once talked about K. Rool in interviews? I don’t think he has from what I can remember. I’d like to know if he has. But I don’t think a Mii in a fat suit even does the character anything more than a disservice to his fans. I’d argue it’s comparable to Bad Box-Art Mega Man in Street Fighter X Tekken in that people would rather nothing at all than what we got instead.

    “I think 4 would be great (If 1 was a clone or a semi clone).”
    Why does one need to be a clone/semi-clone? It’s had over twenty games.

    “I think Spring Man could replace Corrin.”
    Spring Man at least would get in on his own merits for representing a new IP. His inclusion would be more comparable to the Inklings rather than an advertisment (Arms will come out before they even announce Smash for Switch assuming they’re saving it for E3).

    MagcargoMan on January 21 |
    • Crud, I meant “Llyod Irving as Mii Swordfighter”. I really wish we could edit comments here.

      MagcargoMan on January 21 |
    • Brawler has a cannonball-like projectile in his Shot Put, as well as a few powerful stall-then-falls. Plus, I imagine someone as muscular as him fighting with punches and such rather than something like an arm cannon or a sword. If you’re gonna make K. Rool a Mii costume, Brawler is the way to go.

      Munomario777 on January 21 |
      • Shot Put’s rather vague in it’s similarities to the cannonball; it doesn’t really work like how the cannonball would. It’s barely on the level of something like Mega Man X as Mii Gunner. Really he’s one of those character where you can’t truly have a decent-level recreation of how the character would play. Like Toad or Ashley (not that I really care for those characters, but I was just bringing up examples).

        I’d argue that aside from a few moves based on his Boxer persona from DK64 that he’d probably use more claws swipes than punches. He’d probably throw his weight around a bit and have some belly attacks too.

        MagcargoMan on January 22 |
        • That at that point it sounds more like K. Rool’s costume WAS just chosen as a point of convenience than any real love for the character…

          … Either that or there really isn’t enough for K. Rool to do to base an entire moveset around as a character and the Mii Costume was “the next best thing”

          KL-Cobalt on January 22 |
          • “… Either that or there really isn’t enough for K. Rool to do to base an entire moveset around as a character and the Mii Costume was “the next best thing””

            Oh, but that’s wrong. He has plenty to work with.

            MagcargoMan on January 23 |
            • As I’ve been told, but plenty of it has either always been heavy on the blunderbuss, or all of his boss fight moves stitched together like Frankenstein’s monster, complete with costume changes corresponding to each action.

              KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
  5. So the No-Mii rumors of Mario Kart are gone – They’re back: the question mark IS the Mii Option, just not unlocked. I honestly would’ve liked Kirby added in instead of separating the Villagers but what the hey.

    And yeah, just read the article on Brawl’s character choices – Relevancy being the big thing there too. To which, it makes you wonder what characters would be added to Smash – We have Splatoon, the possibility of someone from ARMs, and to a lesser extent of BoxBoy – But aside from that, I’m kinda stumped.

    KL-Cobalt on January 22 |
  6. I don’t think Brawl’s characters were really chosen for recentness. Maybe someone, like Lucas, Ike, Lucario and (a bit less) Olimar, but that’s it.
    So Diddy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Wario, Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard, Wolf and Samus had all had big roles recently. Well, of course they did.They were, and still are, some of the most important characters in some of the most important Nintendo series. They always get big roles. So, eh :/
    Then you had Ike who was not just the last FE lord, but the first international FE lord and the main character of two episodes, and Olimar from Pikmin, which was a new series, but not THAT new already and with 2 titles and 2 ports under its belt. They were recent alright, but they already proved themselves.
    You can bring out the recentness excuse for Lucas and Lucario, but it’s 2 characters. And even then, Lucario was the only non-gen 1 pokèmon so it made some sense, and Lucas was intended to be in Smash ever since Melee.

    So I think back in Brawl characters were chosen for their own merits, not just for recentness like it happened for the vast majority of Sm4sh’s newcomers. Rosalina isn’t, and won’t ever be, much more than the Petey Piranha of the week (except for her 3d World role). Palutena just isn’t, and won’t ever be, in the same league as Diddy, Wario or Dedede (or even characters like Toad, Dixie or Ridley). Both Robin and Corrin will soon get lost as just another FE lord. Dark Pit and Lucina are, in the grand scheme of things, extremely minor characters (even clones and semiclones used to be selected better, like Toon Link who appears in a ton of games or Lucas who at least is the main character of his game).
    The only good choices were the Villager (AC is very big and deserves a character), Little Mac (not really a retro character anymore but with a lot of legacy) and Shulk (main character of a promising new series, a bit like Olimar was in Brawl’s time).

    ze on January 23 |
    • This so much. There’s obviously a few who were chosen for their recentness, but the majority of the newcomers in Brawl are characters that would have been added to Smash regardless of whether their series had a new game or not. Wario is an important and popular Mario character was considered for Melee, Dedede is the villain (well, was) of the Kirby series and was considered since the original, Meta Knight is Kirby’s rival and a fan-favourite in the Kirby games, Diddy Kong was the second playable character of Donkey Kong Country and is the Luigi to DK’s Mario, Wolf is Fox’s Rival, Olimar is from Pikmin which was a brand new successful IP that already had two games before the Wii, etc. Most of characters added in Brawl have reason to get in that doesn’t hinge on time. And even the ones who did get in for recency reasons like Ike still have something that makes them important on their own merits (Ike is the only lord besides Marth to star in more than one Fire Emblem game, which means he has way more merit than Roy and Corrin ever did). Lucario was marketed a lot before Gen 4 even came out and still is today; he’s basically Pokemon’s secondary mascot. Toon Link is the most recurring design of Link in the entire Zelda series and had five appearances already before Brawl. Hell, even Lucas was planned for Melee, so it’s not like Sakurai only planned on adding him after Mother 3 came out.

      When we get to Smash 4, very few of the first party characters originate from games that came out before the Wii. The majority of the newcomers are new-wave characters, and a few are retro. Villager and Bowser Jr. are the only newcomers that you could consider “inbetween”, whereas Brawl had a lot of in-between era characters. Now, there’s nothing wrong with adding recent characters if they have something that would get them in on their own merits even if they weren’t new (like Wii Fit Trainer and Miis since the former is from a best-selling game with three entries in it’s series and Miis are Nintendo’s avatars that have been used across multiple consoles and are the faces of Wii Sports, a significant Wii title), and Greninja is a part of a starter line which makes him more important than a lot of Pokemon, but then we got characters like Dark Pit (who’s role in his own series is pretty small compared to other characters and just added to the Kid Icarus shilling), Lucina (who is actually the least important of the three main characters of Awakening. Also why did Awakening need two characters exactly?), Shulk (Xenoblade has already ditched him, he’s a one-off in the Xeno series that was riding on the Operation Rainfall hype), Corrin (a character who was literally added for being from an upcoming game and goes directly against what Sakurai said about the last few DLC characters being fanservice). Half these characters have already started to become irrelevant by the time Smash 4 came out. I wanted Robin since I advocated for him before he was revealed since I wanted FE rep who’d use a weapon besides a sword, but even he doesn’t really have any relevance anymore since Corrin is the new avatar character of Fire Emblem (and Corrin will more than likely be ditched in the next FE game on the Switch too). The decision to go with mostly characters whose recency was a big reason for them being chosen will horribly date the roster in a few years time.

      There’s also Palutena, who’s a bit of a weird one. I mean, I think Uprising warranted a second Kid Icarus character and Palutena has been in all three games in the series, so she’s the best choice for a second KI rep, but I would barely consider her a retro character since she has nothing to do with the original KI version at all. She’s basically for all intents and purposes a modern character. Brawl may have drastically redesigned Pit, but he still had influence from the NES game in some ways like his Up Special, Down Special and Final Smash. What I’m saying is that she should be in but I still would use her as an example of Smash 4’s slant towards new-wave characters.

      I don’t think it’s right to compare her to Petey Piranha, especially since she’d been playable in a platformer and was a fan-favourite since Galaxy (I never got why Nintendo ignored her popularity with fans for six years before they put her in 3D World). It doesn’t seem like they’re gonna drop her anytime soon. I like Rosalina as a Mario character and she’s pretty unique in Smash but there are characters from the Mario series that have been waiting much longer to get in Smash. I’d bring her back but if I wanted to add a Mario newcomer I’d give Rosie the least priority out of all the Mario characters (Dr. Mario would be cut if it were up to me). I think she has more genuine merit than most of the newcomers but I think she isn’t that vital in the grand scheme of things.

      Brawl’s roster did things much better. It seemed less of a soulless advertising opportunity than Smash 4’s roster since it was more interesting in adding important characters rather than the flavour of the month.

      MagcargoMan on January 26 |
      • I think Shulk is ok. Xenoblade is already a series and he is the hero of the first (and most popular) episode, so he makes sense. A bit like Marth, or Ness, even if he’s not really the first.

        I’m more salty about Robin, Corrin and Lucina. They were all selected when their games were still in development or not released. If you have to go to this lenghts, just pick someone from another series (you know there was this Dixie Kong character who already had a large history and was even going to reappear in a new title…). And they still all look too much like one another. Corrin and Lucina will just be faces among faces in the future. They should have just stopped at Robin, if anything.

        This goes for Greninja too, even if I like him more.

        Rosalina is a very secondary character no matter how you spin it. Bowser Jr. was the better Mario newcomer, and we really should have gotten Toad instead of her. He was in 3d World, too, and in an endless amount of other games. Or Paper Mario. Someone with actual weight. Plus I personally loathe how she fights, but that’s another story.

        Palutena… I don’t know. Let’s face it, if Uprising was made by anyone else than Sakurai she would have never been playable in Smash. She’s fine as Kid Icarus’ second rep I guess, but I don’t think Kid Icarus needed a second rep. Plus she’s pretty boring, I mean her gimmick is just that she got special treatment with the custom moves (something totally arbitrary that could have worked for every single other character). Meh.
        And yes, she obviously qualifies as a recent character.

        Individually they’re all more or less ok, but then you throw in the fact that the other newcomers were:
        -third party
        -retro
        -not really that exciting, at least for most (I’m thinking about the Wii Fit Trainer and the Miis)
        And you’re left with Villager, Mac and Bowser Jr. as the only characters selected a bit like Brawl did. Plus if you were not a Fire Emblem or Kid Icarus fan you either got no new characters or even lost some (Lucas and Wolf still sting, even if Lucas luckily came back) and the selection becomes very boring and unbalanced.
        I didn’t like it at all, honestly. Brawl’s method was much, much better. I would have said that the guest characters save it all, but then Bayonetta came in… :/

        ze on January 26 |
        • Xenoblade isn’t exactly a new IP; it’s part of the Xeno series which also contains Xenogears and Xenosaga. Plus he’s a one-off; Xenoblade Chronicles X had a completely different cast and it looks like the same can be said for Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Even Sakurai said in the pic of the day that he isn’t the kind of character that’d usually make it into Smash.

          I agree that they should have just stopped at Robin. I think the FE Roster just being Marth, Ike and Robin (with Lucina as an alt costume for Marth) would have been perfect. Such a shame they went overboard with it.

          Uprising would have given KI a newcomer for Smash even if Sakurai didn’t make it. You can argue it might not have been Palutena, but they wouldn’t have ignored a big new game that revived (if only for a little while) a long-dead IP. I agree that her moveset is boring, especially because instead of using light powers they mostly just gave her moves that don’t really suit her or ones that a lot of characters have like a counter, warp and reflector.

          I didn’t really care for any of the guest DLC characters to be honest.

          MagcargoMan on January 27 |
  7. There seems to be quite a bit of hindsight bias in your argument; not every Brawl newcomer has managed to stay in the spotlight, yet you ignore the potential of many of the Smash 4 newcomers to appear in future titles. Doesn’t that seem a bit hypocritical? Also, do you think importance determines relevancy, or relevancy determines importance? Because there are viable counterexamples for either point, and dismissing one for the other means your ignoring that they are both variables that rely on the other.

    Bob Lennon on January 23 |
    • I don’t know if you were replying to me, but if so, think about it this way.
      Meta Knight, Pit, Wario, Pokèmon Trainer, Diddy, Dedede, ROB, Wolf and arguably Olimar could all have easily been added in Melee. Lucas, Ike, ZSS and Lucario couldn’t, but they all had good reasons for inclusion. Characters like Wario, Diddy or Dedede wouldn’t have looked out of place even in SSB64…
      Now how many of the SM4SH newcomers could have been added in Brawl? Villager, Little Mac, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt… and that’s it. Maaaaybe Rosalina? Or the Wii Fit Trainer? But Galaxy and Wii Fit didn’t even have trophies in Brawl.
      That’s what I’m talking about. Brawl characters were simply more proven. You had 2-3 exceptions but they made sense anyways.
      And who are the Brawl newcomers who didn’t manage to stay in the spotlight? I can give you Lucas and maybe Ike, but that’s it, really.

      ze on January 25 |
      • “Hindsight bias” means to look at things in the past more kindly; you’re implying that the current Smash newcomers lack potential to reappear in future titles. Whether they are ‘proven’ or not is based on your perspective.

        Bob Lennon on January 26 |
        • What are you talking about. Characters like Diddy, Dedede or Wario had already appeared in a TON of games when Brawl came out. The majority of Sm4sh’s characters didn’t. I mean there’s not much to debate, that’s just how it is.

          ze on January 26 |
          • So you’re saying Megaman, Pac Man, Ryu, Bowser Jr., Cloud, Little Mac, Villager, Shulk, the Miis, and Bayonetta all haven’t appeared in multiple titles? Your argument seems very focused on a handful of newcomers, several of which have since appeared in spin-offs or have potential to appear in future titles.

            Bob Lennon on January 26 |
            • I always tend to exclude the guest characters from this conversation. If you remove them, you’re left with: Bowser Jr., Little Mac and the Villager. That’s pretty depressing for a Nintendo crossover.
              Shulk only had one game when Smash4 released. You’re right about the Miis I guess, I always forget they exist… Blame FG.
              And in Brawl every single newcomer bar Lucas had already appeared in multiple titles, anyways.

              ze on January 26 |
            • ‘I always tend to exclude guest characters from this conversation.’

              Sounds like a textbook case of ‘moving the goalposts’ to me…

              Bob Lennon on January 26 |
            • Shulk is a one-off character. Ports don’t count as new appearances.

              And the other poster isn’t moving the goalposts. Third party characters aren’t chosen for the same criteria as first parties. Geno being considered for Brawl despite being completely irrelevant is proof of this.

              MagcargoMan on January 27 |
  8. I agree with Mettaur’s comment earlier, so I’ll just share my sentiment as opposed to the typical “Rep Train” for Impa.

    I’d love to see Impa’s characteristics and abilities referenced and refined in a Smash sense, and not just through weapon names. Take a design from a particular game, or mesh designs to create a “Smash Incarnation” and roll with it. As an example, many have avatars in Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing that look nothing like the Robin, Corrin, and Villager seen in-game, but we know who they are. We see that she has physical skill with the more popular incarnations, but she also proves to be magically talented and significant enough as a Sage. Zelda’ss using her alter-ego, Sheik, is a take on the Sheikah clan; Considering the talents displayed through that, even if Smash takes liberties, wouldn’t that imply that Impa, being a Sheikah, is extremely capable? Perhaps a variant spin on what Sheik displays, preferably not a semi-clone but her own characteristics with barriers, countering, magic, and weaponry.

    Above everything else, if its a-okay for people to dream up reasonable arguments for Bandana Dee in Smash, the same can be done for Impa and other characters from various other IPs.

    chaseralias on January 25 |